Comments on: Excellent point http://www.derekscruggs.com/excellent-point.html Answering questions about entrepreneurship, internet marketing, PHP/MySQL and doing business with China. (How's that for diversity?) Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:16:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: JoAnne http://www.derekscruggs.com/excellent-point.html#comment-61273 Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:18:44 +0000 http://www.derekscruggs.com/excellent-point.html#comment-61273 This reminds me of something I studied in my days of anthropology. There is a farming community on an island in the Pacific that uses "magicians" to do the farming. All the farming looks like "regular" farming - they till the soil, plant the seeds, water, weed, etc. However, at night, the magician goes and dances in the field, and everyone says that the magician is responsible for the miracle of the crop. When confronted by anthropologists with "scientific data" about the role of the seeds, the soil, and the water, the farmers laughed. They said that they understood the critical roles played by all those elements. When pressed to articulate the role of the magician, they said, "We know how to get the seeds to sprout and the plants to grow. But why do you think they do that? That is where the magic comes in!" This reminds me of something I studied in my days of anthropology. There is a farming community on an island in the Pacific that uses “magicians” to do the farming. All the farming looks like “regular” farming - they till the soil, plant the seeds, water, weed, etc. However, at night, the magician goes and dances in the field, and everyone says that the magician is responsible for the miracle of the crop.

When confronted by anthropologists with “scientific data” about the role of the seeds, the soil, and the water, the farmers laughed. They said that they understood the critical roles played by all those elements. When pressed to articulate the role of the magician, they said, “We know how to get the seeds to sprout and the plants to grow. But why do you think they do that? That is where the magic comes in!”

]]> by: Stuart http://www.derekscruggs.com/excellent-point.html#comment-61269 Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:47:52 +0000 http://www.derekscruggs.com/excellent-point.html#comment-61269 More to this point...(to roughly paraphrase a case made by Sam Harris in "The End of Faith.) People of faith often believe that prayer can work miracles, as in the case of terminal illness. But they only embrace this feature when there is, at least, some slim chance of its edification. For instance, nobody ever prays for an amputee to re-grow a missing limb. It seems that even the most intense faith can find its limits in unavaoidable, salient, scientific fact. More to this point…(to roughly paraphrase a case made by Sam Harris in “The End of Faith.) People of faith often believe that prayer can work miracles, as in the case of terminal illness. But they only embrace this feature when there is, at least, some slim chance of its edification. For instance, nobody ever prays for an amputee to re-grow a missing limb.
It seems that even the most intense faith can find its limits in unavaoidable, salient, scientific fact.

]]> by: Amy Gahran http://www.derekscruggs.com/excellent-point.html#comment-61267 Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:48:41 +0000 http://www.derekscruggs.com/excellent-point.html#comment-61267 Well, you may not be able to teach algebra to dogs, but they may already be geniuses at calculus :-) http://www.doe.virginia.gov/Div/Winchester/jhhs/math/lessons/calculus/dog.html - Amy Gahran Well, you may not be able to teach algebra to dogs, but they may already be geniuses at calculus :-)

http://www.doe.virginia.gov/Div/Winchester/jhhs/math/lessons/calculus/dog.html

- Amy Gahran

]]> by: Derek Scruggs http://www.derekscruggs.com/excellent-point.html#comment-61266 Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:33:24 +0000 http://www.derekscruggs.com/excellent-point.html#comment-61266 Thanks Amy. I think that pretty much everything is explainable via rational inquiry. However, that doesn't mean we all (or even <em>any</em> of us) can <em>comprehend</em> everything. For example, we all know that algebra, geometry and more complex fields of mathematics exists, and that they are useful for explaining the world around us and even allowing us to do amazing things like put satellites in orbit. That said, there is no way you will ever be able to teach your dog to understand algebra. S/he simply has not evolved to have the intellectual capacity of understanding algebra. Likewise, there may be rational, scientific concepts that are simply beyond our intellectual capabilities. These may be the "mysteries of the universe," but no one ever waxes poetic about the "mystery of algebra" vis a vis canines. (Note: I like mystery as much as anyone, but only because it's fun. I also like pizza, a good football game and arguing about the mystery of the Denver Nuggets.) To the degree that I have "faith" in anything, it is that rational inquiry generally leads to progress for both individuals and society, and that religious belief is generally a crapshoot. (For every "love thy neighbor" there is a "unless he's gay"). Many try to argue that my faith in science is no better than faith in God. To which I ask, "why didn't God give us the cure for cholera and smallpox before they killed millions of people, heathens and believers alike?" Thanks Amy. I think that pretty much everything is explainable via rational inquiry. However, that doesn’t mean we all (or even any of us) can comprehend everything.

For example, we all know that algebra, geometry and more complex fields of mathematics exists, and that they are useful for explaining the world around us and even allowing us to do amazing things like put satellites in orbit.

That said, there is no way you will ever be able to teach your dog to understand algebra. S/he simply has not evolved to have the intellectual capacity of understanding algebra. Likewise, there may be rational, scientific concepts that are simply beyond our intellectual capabilities. These may be the “mysteries of the universe,” but no one ever waxes poetic about the “mystery of algebra” vis a vis canines.

(Note: I like mystery as much as anyone, but only because it’s fun. I also like pizza, a good football game and arguing about the mystery of the Denver Nuggets.)

To the degree that I have “faith” in anything, it is that rational inquiry generally leads to progress for both individuals and society, and that religious belief is generally a crapshoot. (For every “love thy neighbor” there is a “unless he’s gay”). Many try to argue that my faith in science is no better than faith in God. To which I ask, “why didn’t God give us the cure for cholera and smallpox before they killed millions of people, heathens and believers alike?”

]]> by: Amy Gahran http://www.derekscruggs.com/excellent-point.html#comment-61265 Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:12:45 +0000 http://www.derekscruggs.com/excellent-point.html#comment-61265 That is a great point, Derek Lately I've been considering more deeply issues related to human nature: psychology, emotions, cognition, social dynamics, perceptions of power, and "politics" in the larger and more general sense. Where these issues (which govern an awful lot of our lives) are concerned, I'd say there's a "third basket." I'm not sure what to call this basket, but it's not generally "science" as in "the product of the scientific method." I think it's more broadly the assumption that there is a rational explanation that can be discovered and tested -- whether scientifically or not. The "God basket" seems to me to be a surrender to either mystery or willful ignorance, depending on your perspective. Or for atheists, the equivalent could be a surrender to chaos, unpredictability, or nihilism. Funny to think that whether or not there's an explanation for any phenomenon may largely depend on whether you assume or believe from the outset that an explanation is possible. - Amy Gahran That is a great point, Derek

Lately I’ve been considering more deeply issues related to human nature: psychology, emotions, cognition, social dynamics, perceptions of power, and “politics” in the larger and more general sense. Where these issues (which govern an awful lot of our lives) are concerned, I’d say there’s a “third basket.”

I’m not sure what to call this basket, but it’s not generally “science” as in “the product of the scientific method.” I think it’s more broadly the assumption that there is a rational explanation that can be discovered and tested — whether scientifically or not.

The “God basket” seems to me to be a surrender to either mystery or willful ignorance, depending on your perspective. Or for atheists, the equivalent could be a surrender to chaos, unpredictability, or nihilism.

Funny to think that whether or not there’s an explanation for any phenomenon may largely depend on whether you assume or believe from the outset that an explanation is possible.

- Amy Gahran

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